107901-wildstar-the-slot-machine-of-cutesy-randomness
Content ---- ---- So it's not hardcore... it's just a second job where instead of getting paid... you actually pay them??? | |} ---- First things first; Felix Baumgartner was not the first to break the sound barrier (the first was Capt. Kittinger back in the 60's) randomized challenge rewards aren't meant to be hardcore; it's meant to add some randomness to challenges to promote getting better medal (which reduces the randomness) and to replay them. Is this your first MMO? That's a feature of the genre, not a W* thing. | |} ---- ---- it's all perspective man. If you want to look at it that way then every single thing we do is a waste of time. | |} ---- It was meant as a humorous jab, I know the way the cookie crumbles. | |} ---- I agree, but our perspective that it has always been a grind so it's supposed to be a grind is not only outdated but detrimental to game design in general. We want newer and innovative games, but complain when familiar traits are not included in the final product. Seems a bit contradictory. Grinding for the sake of grinding is not fun, and grinding for a shot at an item you may or may not find useful is even more painful. Moreover, I think we can agree that randomness does not equal challenge. In that same vein, every lottery game would be the ultimate challenge. | |} ---- And then they call you an entitled whiner and make disparaging comments about WoW. You can make a drinking game out of it. | |} ---- Nobody's more hardcore than grandma and her dozen scratch-off cards. | |} ---- As long as you have a neutral perspective of the game, you'll always be a whiner, because White Kighting (speaking as a former White Knight myself) clouds judgement and turns every post into a personal attack. | |} ---- lol what grind? FFXI, that is a grind, EQ 1 & 2, grinds, EvE; logged out training grind... W*? You can hit 50 in a few days and get into raids in a week or two if you work at it full on.... Crafted gear is ok-enough to get you through pre-raid with some suplements from daily gear / open world / dungeon / adventure drops... Where is the grind? Crafting end game is time gated with eldan data; but not much of a grind. took me 5 months to get cloth craft to 100 in XI leveling it full on... Technologist, architect, and weaponsmith took a combined 7 hours to cap. Where is the grind? Seriously, is any amount of effort = grind today? | |} ---- Surely even you must admit there's good RNG and bad RNG, and that Wildstar has some bad RNG that could do with fixing? If not, we should just discount your comments. | |} ---- ---- Ok, respectfully and In all seriousness, tell me you believe the Elder Gem grind is in the right place right now. Tell me tradeskill grinding for the hope of getting what you need, or for the friggin' circle to land where you want it, is in a comfortable place right now. I'm all for healthy discussion but you can't be this oblivious, man. | |} ---- There is definitely good and bad RNG, and WildStar has put it in places we haven't seen before in an MMORPG to some extent. I think players are overreacting to it for the most part instead of looking at the different gameplay options it could possibly provide. Maybe there's a layer of a system where we have a chance to control some of that randomness, through progression... but not all of it. All I ever see is entitled whiners demanding the game work *only* like they expect and most other games have always done. I want players to look at the potential for being different. | |} ---- I'm still personally curious if he ever did answer what the "correct approach to itemization in Wildstar" is question, lost track of that thread. Mostly it just seems to be crossed arms scowling negation. "Nope. You're playing wrong. If you were playing right you'd realize it's fine. Just want what I want and the game is perfectly fine." Curious if there's any answers in that floppy little muppet head or just "I shall not be moved!" assertions. | |} ---- Lethality, I don't know you so I have no reason to doubt you're a reasonable man/woman/meat popsicle. But using the expression entitled whiners really does not help what you're trying to prove. If anything it accentuates the chasm between players who want Challenging content with players who just want the Status Quo unmodified for fear of being pegged as, you guessed it, an entitled whiner. | |} ---- Yes I do think that it is reasonable. Now I don't think it is 100% perfect, and I hope Carbine will make good on it's claims that more methods of receiving EG's directly from content (rather than Elder Point Conversions) will be implemented. As it stands, the EG vendor materials can indeed be obtained from other sources besides the Genesis key IIRC. The only real problem items are the AMP/Ability points; which are rare world drops with a price matching their rarity in the open world. A lot of folks are upset that those extra points are rare; I don't get it but I can understand the frustration that desirable items are rare... However my response is suck it up; get drops as you get them and toss out some EG's every few months or so if you really really want the extra items not necessary for content. It took me a year and 6 months to collect and upgrade all my artefact items before I finally got my Excalibur in XI.. I wanted the item; so I put in the effort. As for crafting; I have Technologist; architect; and weaponsmith all at expert. I honestly don't mind the crafting system at all; it is much nicer than the XI version; where you waste a ton of money / time collecting materials only to have an arbitrary % of failure which destroys your mats and leaves you with nothing to show for it. I much prefer a partially RNG/ skill game using additives where a base item is guaranteed than an arbitrary break %. Is it perfect? Probably not, but it's steps above crafting in other MMO's I've played. Honestly, it's kinda cool that when my first 2 additives don't RNG perfect, I can toss in another additive to save the craft in many cases.... | |} ---- Or, as a weaponsmith, crap out a bunch of swords with abysmal off-stats and worse specials, one after the other, hoping to accidentally get to create something someone would buy for more than their valuation of trying to get the power core out of it. | |} ---- Does it keep being cool after the 10000th attempt? | |} ---- The complainers about Crafting are most probably coming from those who played WoW. No RNG at all. You have the mats, you craft exactly what it says you'll craft. So, you need to compare with that, as well as other games where the RNG is worse. | |} ---- I was about to say just that. People are here from all over. | |} ---- Ok, say you're a carpenter. You have the wood (giggity), all your tools and your workbench ready to churn out some super comfy, kickass chairs. Now, you might want to build a classic rugged chair first, then a more minimalistic one and then, go all out with a Louis XIV piece of art because reasons. You roll up your sleeves, you start hammering away and voila... you end up with a coffee table. But hey, RNG right? Crafting is innovative, I personally spend a lot of time doing Expert Outfitter Research Items. But between the "unexpectedly fun" results and the availability of tradeskill items like Eldan Data Fragments, I think we could use a little bit less RNG in crafting, in my opinion. | |} ---- It has never taken me more than 5 attempts to create an item as an architect or Technologist. I've gotten some bad stats on weapons, but there is a significant amount of customisability with the circuit board system (compared to other crafting methods). Like I said, probably not perfect, but it's really not as bad as some folks are making it sound. | |} ---- Cut into a piece of lumber; hit a knot; lose your material.... Yea, actually IRL randomness can have a significant impact on what you build. Or how you can shape a material... Also this is a game... If I wanted to play RL carpenter I would go to my shed and build something; not play wood simulator (tm protostar) in W* | |} ---- Wow... really? Cut into a piece of lumber... lose a finger. IRL RNG? C´mon, man. | |} ---- ---- I can't even begin to guess at what you're arguing here, other than both sides of the coin. "Materials can be unsuited to your work, and maybe you don't look at them closely enough before you start working with them. That's just real life. But crafting in an MMO shouldn't draw from real life." Well... yes. "Realism" is the worst possible argument for an MMO mechanic. | |} ---- QFT Annoying isn't hardcore. You want to weed out the unskilled and undetermined? Do it in a damn raid. Make a raid so hardcore that it replaces the time wasted on attunement. Let your customers actually play the game. The hardcore players you're supposedly catering to would no doubt prefer to be spending their time trying to finish a very difficult raid than jumping though arbitrary hoops. Attunement is an artificial and annoying roadblock you've put in to force players to play longer. I look around at all the 'My realm is dead' and 'Please merge servers' threads and gotta ask, 'how's that roadblock working out for ya?' I guarantee that if those players had been able to get to end game content faster they'd still be here. It's almost astounding to me how long players will do the same raid. It only makes sense. Hardcore players will do the same raid over and over, even when it's on farm, to gear up for the next raid down the road. And even if some of them did quit they'd be back for the next raid patch. But instead you drive them away with a road to raiding so full of speed bumps that they'd rather just go play something else. | |} ---- Yes and No. More people in raid always good thing. However, Chua not in mood to sacrifice raid to someone unable to keep paws out of red. Dungeons are good practise ground and from forums turns out is already hard for many. If Raid is more challenging, then loosening up on Dungeon is bad idea. Discussing time limit etc is something else. Personal insults... Till Chua invent timemachine, please stop wasting time Some parts of current RNG should change, Chua agree on that much. In other discussion topic about runes made agreement that two solutions needed for problem: Remove situation where AP superior over all stats Remove RNG on Rune slot count, but keep rune types RNG Edited August 12, 2014 by BusterCasey Content | |} ---- ---- ---- Good call, thanks a lot, Buster. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- So you do concede that there is arbitrary RNG. I'm not trying to make everything linear and boring, we have WoW for that. But I do believe RNG has a place and a measure of sanity involved. | |} ---- ---- If you buy random lumber from the local huge home improvement chain you deserve to hit knots. Yes, experienced woodworkers still have to deal with defects in the material, but number and severity is mitigated because they know how to pick quality wood. Experience should significantly minimize these errors yet Wildstar's targets remain the same size regardless how many levels you have. Fixing the rune slot count is a good first step. Rune slot type is still a mess. Apparently the stream mentioned that there will be items that allow a one time reroll. Sorry, that's not how you fix RNG. | |} ---- pretty much sums up how I feel too. Bolded a true statement as well. That statement does not just apply to MMOs but life in general. | |} ---- Slot machines are fun if you're not depending on them for rent money. Rare pets? Not rent money. Required AMPs (TF), AMP and skill point extenders? Very much rent money. The frequency that you can iterate through Adventures, Dungeons and Raids is statistical noise compared to the frequency you can iterate through mobs. Rampant RNG defines Korean grinders. RNG is well and good when the variation adds flavor. Drops should swing between "hey, neat" and "awesome!". In Wildstar the lower bound is "ayup, salvage trash" with too much of the possible range in that category. In previous MMO's consumables were pretty much a requirement. Our guild had a few people grinding up technologist to supply our eventual raid team. Aside from the top-end being junk (15min? buff, cleared on death), there are certain things that can't be made without a really good catalyst. Coordinate crafting was the last straw for an influential member and the guild has moved on. | |} ---- Could you please explain to me what the EXTRA amp & ability points are 'Required' for? I've run content all the way up to GA with NO extra amps / ability points just fine... what pray tell are they required for again? Expert Tech here, never once used a catylist and have filled all the trees.... Can't tell you why he really left; but catalysts are not necessary at all even for the current top tier Tech schemas. | |} ---- 614MPH isn't breaking the sound barrier. Unless I'm crazy... you need to get your facts straight. | |} ---- ---- AMPs, AMP pt and Skill pts can drop as BOE so you can essentially farm money in game and just buy the item that you want, rather than farm for the item itself. Right now the most reliable way to get amp and skill points is to buy them with EG, or spend a large sum of plat for the BOE ones that drop from PVP bags. Its super easy to farm money and EG in this game, so that is not locked behind RNG. AMP and Skill points are super expensive right now because they're both rare and powerful. They are not a necessary to you enjoying or succeeding through the game content but something that you will buy slowly over time as you cap your EG every week. If they increase the drop rate, that would be awesome, but for right now having restrictions on these items keeps people playing the game. The last thing an MMO wants to have is no more carrots to chase. | |} ---- Let's evaluate your assumptions: It's super easy to farm money It's doable if you know what you're doing, but people in general are just plain bad at economics. Most people don't have 20, 50, 100 spare plat laying around. If they did then the AMP and skill point unlocks would be 200, 500 or 1000 plat. It's super easy to farm Elder Gems Sure, but there's a weekly cap. This is the most effective avenue people have at the current time to acquire the AMP and skill unlocks which means it'll take 40+ weeks to complete their characters if all they do is sink their EG's into these points. Buy anything else and you've just extended the completion date by at least two weeks. Drops and not locked behind RNG They do drop in open world content but the chance is vanishingly small. I suppose you could consider that an effective drop rate of 0 is "not locked behind RNG". Yes, out of context, but I've already poked holes in your available for mere plat argument. They are not a necessary to you enjoying or succeeding through the game content Here's the crux of the issue. It has nothing to do with the current content and everything to do with content balanced with the assumption that everybody has these points. In six months what are fresh 50's supposed to do? Grind EG for 40+ weeks just to be allowed on the playground? Before you claim that Carbine won't do that, they will have to. The additional abilities those points unlock are just that good. If they don't the #hardcore will cry rivers of tears over how faceroll the content is. (Bring back Vanilla WS!) Having restrictions on these items keeps people playing the game You think people will stand for nine months of grinding? Lay off the peyote man. Most people are burnt out on the dailies after a couple weeks. The last thing an MMO wants to have is no more carrots to chase Carrots are supposed to be fun. When something is perceived as essential that fun becomes a chore especially when the chase becomes an extended grind. | |} ---- ---- No, there's never good RNG. There's just degrees of bad RNG. The "accepted" degree of RNG is 1) the randomness of a piece of loot that you want dropping and then 2) being won by you (if you have competition rolling on it or lined up for it). Adding additional RNG on top of this, especially with stats/sockets, is NOT fun and no, it is NOT good design. When an item drops, it should be easy to determine if it is usable and interesting and optimal for you. Too much Stats RNG starts adding gray areas. You slave away at raiding and are after Epic Shoulderpiece. Finally, wow, it drops! But it has +spell penetration on it, which you'll never use in a million years. Or maybe it is a version of the armor without sockets. The high immediately becomes a downer. That's not a good user experience. | |} ---- Have you played MMOs before? One of the big parts of these games that keeps people playing is to work on your characters progression. Making your character more and more powerful as the months go by is one of the biggest things that keep people playing. I remember similar grinds in other games, some parts of the grind were fun and others were not so fun. If there is nothing left in the game to advance my character I'm going to go play something else. I know that a lot of people want everything handed to them, but I would argue that if players have a goal of advancing their character, they are going to work on getting EG (which btw is earned by practically everything you do in PVE and not just dailies) as well as grinding the $ in order to purchase them if you want to get those pts more quickly. I see amp pts go for 40P on Avatus so it won't be something you get overnight but is definitely obtainable. An MMO is an ever evolving thing, they'll probably allow these super rare and hard to obtain items to be more accessible in the future. IMO the super amazing items SHOULD take more time and effort to obtain. | |} ---- Sure, once levelling is done, gear takes over. My personal take is that you need the gear to do the content to get the gear to do the next tier of content etc. What keeps me playing is content, specifically larger (8+) group content. We left SW:TOR because the content was stale (and nothing new announced) not because we ran out of upgrades. There's nothing wrong with striving for the best gear, looking for rares or embarking on a nine month grind for that epic loots if that's what floats your boat. To me it's a means to an end. | |} ----